Interview with Ian Berzins, President & CEO of Braveheart Resources (TSX-V:BHT) Braveheart is a Canadian based junior mining company focused on building shareholder value through exploration and development in favourable Canadian mining jurisdictions at or near past-producing properties.
Braveheart's main asset is the 100% owned Bull River Mine project near Cranbrook, British Columbia which has a current Mineral Resource containing copper, gold and silver. Braveheart’s newest acquisition is the 100% owned Thierry Mine project near Pickle Lake, Ontario containing copper, nickel, palladium, platinum, gold and silver.
Matthew Gordon: Give us that 1-minute overview of the business, and I'll pick it up with some questions from there.
Ian Berzins: Yeah, so Braveheart is a junior mining company started really as an exploration company. We're moving quickly through development actually into production and we expect to be one of the newer producing mines or junior mining companies in Canada, which I think makes us particularly unique. We began when we last talked, we had a principal asset called the Bull River mine, it's Copper, Gold and Silver, near Cranbrook British Columbia, all the infrastructure nearby that we are excited about. And when we last chatted, we had just stepped out and took a chance to try to acquire a larger project actually in Pickle Lake, Ontario, which was called the Thierry mine, Copper, Nickel, but it also has Palladium, Platinum, Gold and Silver. This is an operation that was run by UMEX for 6 years between 1976 and 82. And what intrigued us there's a large resource over 22Mt underground and about 1.7% Copper and also a large open-pit project, if you will, that's in an inferred category. So significant assets there, we bought them lock, stock and barrel, we own 100% of them for CAD$2.5M. We think that that was very accretive to our long-term prospects, as I said, it's a bit larger than what we have going on at Bull River but the intent really is to get Bull River up and running, get a modest cash flow from Bull River, understand Thierry a little bit better from the point of view of the geology and how to attack the project. So that's what we had at the time and it was, I’d like to talk a little bit about some of the aspects of both primarily Bull River and Thierry.
Matthew Gordon: You've also gone and acquired another asset, Gold asset, not Copper, Gold. Why?
Ian Berzins: Again, a great question that came from the listeners, I'm not sure but I've been asked why we would do that. And I guess when I first joined the company that was the sole asset that Braveheart had, it was an option and a high-grade Gold mine. I thought the agreement was too expensive and so as soon as we dropped it about 18 months ago, because we just couldn't afford to keep it. But as we move forward and work with the underlying owners, we said, you know, Gold, when we acquire that option was USD$1200, a couple weeks back, we were up above USD$1800. So, the margins were good at USD$1200, they're much better at USD$1800. And now that we own 100% of a mill in Cranbrook BC, which is about 300km away, we can actually, from initially a bulk sample, we hope to mine high-grade, pre-concentrated ore field and take it over to Bull River. And so when this thing was mined, it was mined at 22g Gold which was quite high-grade in 1938 to 1940. So it is narrow, it is flat, it's got interesting mining challenges but that's what the challenge is, is that the site because we're going to truck a concentrate ore product to our mill, so those costs are relatively easy to understand. The margins on that once the mines are permitted will be pretty good and we would look at as really an incremental fee to Bull River. We've got about 140,000oz at 16.5g and through our sorting, we've already established that we can take that grade up about 16.5 probably up to 22, based on our work we did with Steinert 2.5 years ago. So it's really in our back pocket, the only thing we have to spend, we didn't spend anything to reacquire and effectively, I agreed that we would build, upgrade our current Gold path, if you will, but it's a road. But we would get a road about 17km from the main highway near Nelson, BC up to the mine, the mines up at about 7000ft elevation. So our commitment is that we will design, permit and build that road by December 15 of 2022, a full 22 months out. We already did the pre-engineering when we own the option before. And so it's really a matter if we can permit it this summer, then we may even build the road this summer, and our estimated cost is around $350,000. In order to hold the option now, it really it's not an onerous project for us to hold for another 22 months. And we think that in a market that seems to be rewarding Silver and Gold more than Copper, that it's good to have the diversification of metals.
Matthew Gordon: So this road says sooner 50k that's it, something kilometres 250 k?
Ian Berzins: Yes, it's already in place. We have to I mean, there's a few areas on that road where there's probably we got to stay away from that avalanche hazard, potentially but the road is part of it. It's a forest service road already.
Matthew Gordon: We've had some questions sent in saying just get focused on Bull River, why are you being distracted? This is incremental cash for you to help you develop Thierry mine because Thierry is not going to be financed with Bull River alone, you're going to need help. So, is this why this Alpine Gold property is important?
Ian Berzins: Yeah, again, it's strategic for all those reasons. Because the reality is if the cash flow on a unit basis out of Alpine we'll be about 4x higher than Bull River. Bull River is a good little operation, but at 1.7% Copper, at these current Copper prices, the economics are pretty good. At lower Copper prices, Bull river would be on the cusp again, whereas Alpine with pre-concentration, we'll get above 4x times the value. So we would look at saying we can get Alpine permitter, it's not going to be a hobby mine but we might run Alpine ore let's say 3, 4 days a month, otherwise running Bull River and all we really have to do is add a gravity concentrator either a Knelson or a Falcon at the current mill. Those are relatively inexpensive, and we've already done the metallurgy where we know that 80% of the Gold at Alpine is gravity recoverable. The other 15% we'd arguably commingle it with the Copper concentrates that we plan to sell to the Asian smelters. So, it's just a really interesting incremental mine. On its own it wasn't a company maker to me but as an incremental feed, it's genius and we think that it also sets up the Bull River mill to be what you might almost consider a regional mill. There are other small producers that might have higher grade that we could talk to going forward but it's certainly not a distraction and it's not going to take capital away from us that needs to go in a Bull River. So I want to assure people that this is not a change in focus, this is really an incremental accretive addition.
Matthew Gordon: This is add cash to whatever Bull River can contribute in terms of positive cash flow, so that you can focus at some point rather than on Thierry mine which is a significantly larger asset. It's the real prize down the line, right?
Ian Berzins: Exactly. And again, people have asked, could it be a larger deposit? And the short answer is, yes, we've got about 275,000t we're going to make a net profit on those tonnes about $500/tonne, so it's significant. It'll be small, it'll be probably adding maybe, you know, 35,000t, 40,000t a year going forward, but we all would probably blend it. And we have to decide once the permitted road is in and the other thing that happens is we have access year around. All the drilling programmes we've done to date at Alpine have been helicopter assist, which is not, it's an expensive way to have to drill holes. So now we can actually get up to the portal, the mine is dewatered. We could go in, we could travel there tomorrow quite easily if this well, except that there's snow in front of the portal, but the mine is open, dewatered. And, and so we like that it's kind of at the top of the mountain ridge. So we don't have any holding costs to keep that operation in our portfolio and so again, we have a little bit of Gold at Bull River, we got a little bit of Gold at Thierry but this is a high-grade feed for us which again, we can demonstrate that not only we focus primarily on Copper, but we've also got Gold and Silver.
Matthew Gordon: Let's get back to Bull River mine with that and without going over the ground recovered last time, even a lot significant amount of infrastructure there, you've been frugal in the way that you've upgraded it. And you focused on a few core pieces to kind of help you get Bull River mine going. So what is the timing of, what have you done in the last 3 months to move that project forward?
Ian Berzins: So one of the most important projects right now we're lacking a permit to be able to mill tailings at the site and deposit them on surface. So we've done most of our work towards what's called filtered tailings or dry stack, which in British Columbia is considered one of the best available technologies. We began that study with Stantec, back in July and we have our final reports from Stantec. So those are ready to be submitted to government, that's been a bit of a work in progress. But frankly, it was $400,000 worth of engineering studies to get it done but now it's done. Now what we're looking at is, is again, coming back at Bull River to what I call a phased approach, where we have a unique situation with 165,000t of material on the ground and for argument's sake, this was material that originated in the underground mine. So it's Sulphur, Sulphide-bearing Copper rocks, mainly Chalcopyrite, but there is some amount of leaching if you will from that pile. So even from an environmental perspective, we're saying to government, this is a long term obligation of the proponent, whoever that may be. Today, it's us and we want to get rid of that pile, and we want to make a little money doing it. So that's a really first prize and with mining the surface stockpile on its own, there's enough proceeds to number 1) pay for the mining, eliminate all of our other senior debt and pay for the upgrades and still have probably 8 to $10M of walking around money. The project is very robust once it's built and once we have our permit. Brownfields, so that doesn't mean that the permit is eminent tomorrow, but we are progressing those discussions if you will where again, first phase will be to mill the surface stock. I want to point out Matthew, this isn’t mining tailings I get asked a lot of people say, Oh, well, you're going to mine the tailings. Well, a lot of guys try to mine tailings and there's obviously some value behind, but they're never as successful as they want to be setting out. This is not tailings, this is run of mine material that will grade about 1.7% Copper equivalent and it's on surface. So $50, $60 mining costs aren't there so this is why it's why the economics are robust and that was the first thing. The permit process, it's an iterative thing, where you make submissions, and then you get feedback and then you may be asked to include something else. We spoke briefly about avalanches, we have to put together an avalanche study, it's going to cost me somewhere between $11,000 to$18,000 but we got to do it. So those are the things that as we go through the application, we tick the boxes. But in parallel, what we are doing is we have support of the board that we continue with the capital upgrades. So as much as we're waiting for the permit, I'd like to be in a position that should we get the permit late fall, early Q4 this year, that the capital upgrades are already in place. One of the key ones is, as I mentioned, before, we lost a transformer we didn’t, but the previous owner did through fire during care and maintenance in 2014. We own that transformer; we're going to be moving it to site in with the plan to reconnect with BC Hydro in June. Once that projects done, now we have sufficient access to grid power for double what we're planning and the foreseeable future. Then we have a capital project with flotation cells because we're producing a Copper concentrate, and we've located some filtration cells as well. And then we have to do some civil works associated with the dry stack. So all in all people, they question us when we say we've got capital upgrades for about 5M and we're trying to leverage essentially $95 million of usable infrastructure to get back going again. So it's, to me it's extremely unique and the proof will be in the pudding when we can, you know, start up, start up the mill and get going. One of the things we have done is that we have a theme throughout the company about trying to utilise newer technology and so one of the things and it's not particularly novel is for us, is ore sorting. And we've done a very interesting study right now where we send material to Germany, it's been returned, we've had it assayed in Vancouver, Canada. And what we're looking to do is that 165,000t pile, it'll have probably 25% fines but probably 25 to 35% of the remaining material can be removed, call it essentially it's low-grade, it's waste. So essentially through that, we would be looking to eliminate a significant portion of that pile. So in most mill operations your biggest cost in a mill is the grinding circuit. So after crushing, you've got the grinding and the grinding is really where you pulverise the material to extract the metals. Well, if you don't have to pulverise all that material, the course waste dish material can actually be commingled in the dry stack. So we see it as a real win-win we may not be able to buy an ore sorting machine right off the get go. But we may be able to lease rent to own something like that. And our intent would really be to shave the cost of that operation by $0.5M to $1M when it comes time to actually do it. The other thing that's happened to us is people have said, well, how do you know what the value is of the stockpile and you know, you've got a large pile 20m high and you can drill it and you can scratch at it and all the rest but the proof will be in the pudding when we do the ore sorting and actually assay. So now we know 100% what our expectation should be when that stuff goes through the mill. We think that the ore sorting again, it's a component where we've already demonstrated that it works at Alpine. We were able to take a 21g Gold assay at Alpine and upgrade it to about 43g Gold in the Steinert machine. So we know that it's amenable, we know now that Bull River is amenable. And as I mentioned, we'll be putting some results out later this week or next week. And then in the big picture is that we're going to eventually want to work on a design for the new mill at Thierry. So if you the ore sorting works on similar grade ores at Bull River, it's not to say it'll be identical for Thierry, but it makes us put our thinking caps on about what happens if you integrate ore sorting into the original design a new mill design at Thierry. So again, it's early stages for us, we got to walk, got to understand some of the information but it does bode well. And the other thing that will happen is that as we mine underground, we've currently got about 6.5 years at Bull River. But if we're able to apply ore sorting, then arguably, you could be ultimately feeding a higher-grade product that may allow you actually to take the mine deeper than you might otherwise do. So we're just going to get you know, we're excited about getting a lot of learnings in the next 12 months and try to apply those as best we can and as cost effectively as we can.
Matthew Gordon: Bull River gives you 8 or 9M of walking around money you said earlier there. The Gold will make a contribution but all of that, and I don't know what that number is, do you have a number on that?
Ian Berzins: Yeah, so I know that the Alpine Gold contribution just on the current resource could be $175M. It's very significant, over a period of 6 years, depending on the mining rate that we do there and depending on whether or not we can expand that resource. So it's a significant contributor.
Matthew Gordon: Why this long, drawn-out process, why not just go and raise the money, the Copper prices, you know, really kind of gone through the roof has been on a tear for the last sort of 6 to 9 months? Why not go and find yourself someone with a deep pocket and get Thierry going concurrently?
Ian Berzins: Well, number one, you know, if I return to Bull River, what we've faced since we own this project is that if we had a permit, we could raise the money. And if we had the money, we could live out the permit process. So a number of people would say that Bull River is kind of interesting, you guys bought it cheap. You got 150M tax pools, we get all that. But it's going to be a small project. So what are you going to do next? So we were kind of criticised, we didn't have something next? Well, we were able to basically pick up this Thierry project, which now is 10 to 15 times larger. So not big, go bigger, go small but this is a big project. And it may be that I think, at least as we go forward, there's going to be other people that look and say what Copper projects are available in Canada, there's Braveheart, they might be too small, but let's cosy up and see what we can do there. So we're not, you know, I could see some sort of a partnership arrangement going down the road. We currently don't have Royalties on any of our properties. And I by nature, I'm not a big fan of Royalties, because you kind of give up your firstborn, sometimes your second, but there is a time, there's a place for them. And so it could be that by removing, by not having royalties we might be the guys at layer one on. But it was interesting when we acquired Thierry, when I initially did the deal, we paid about CAD$2.5M to buy this asset, it's valued in the PEA at $240M NPV after tax at a 6% discount rate. At today's Copper price of $4, it's actually the NPV goes up to 400M. So we scooped this in my mind but part of the deal was that the underlying owner, Cadillac would retain a 2% NSR, we could buy back 1% of that for $1M. So again, without getting cheeky, I said to myself, this is I'd love to have this without Royalties. So we issued some shares of Braveheart equivalent value about $300,000 to reacquire the full 2%. When we did that, if you do the math on that, the Thierry underground on its own, assuming you were going to buy back the 1%, for 1M it's a bit of a no brainer, you'd go and have to pay about $26M when you mine Thierry alone. So then you look at the K1-1 deposit the open pit, you'd have to that would be another $17M million. So essentially, by issuing about 2.5M shares of Braveheart, we've acquired the Royalties on that whole property and we basically offset a future liability of 40 to 50M. Now, granted, it's down the road, but it allows us to come back and if we want to, and maybe put a 0.5% or 1% with some other party that specialise in that field. So yeah, I digressed a little bit on the Royalty aspect, but that's the way we see Thierry right now.
Matthew Gordon: Markets change and you know, certainty may not be there somewhere down the line. How do you balance that thinking out at board level or even yourself?
Ian Berzins: Well, let me talk a bit a minute about Feasibility Studies and PEAs and Pre-Feasibility and Feasibility. So at Bull River, I've been criticised that we haven't spent $0.5M to do a Pre-Feasibility or Feasibility on a project that we're going to build anyway. So rightly or wrongly, we say we're already there. We don't need that, you know, the banks might like it, but we don't need it. Thierry was different. So we expedited the PEA so when from the time I talked to you, we actually completed a PEA in 30 days, frankly, we already started it. But at the end of the day, we thought with a PEA that came in at 240M in this market, that should have been a kicker to our market cap of about 10M, just insight. You know, when we look around the boardroom and talk about you pay 2.5, you've got $2.5Bn of metal, it's got to be worth something. But it didn't move the needle and partly, in my mind, it didn't move the needle, because the $400,000 capital costs to get it going people would look and say well, the guys before couldn't do it. The new guys nice to have the report, but they'll never build it. So oh well so as a result, we've looked at commissioning with the same QP that did the underlying report a bit of a different studies, we have a base study on underground only for Thierry. Now we're looking at if we were to focus initially on the open-pit potential, and put that to the mill as a starting point, we could arguably cut the capital cost down to maybe 150 to 175M which is still a big number, but it's not as big a number as 400 and in order to do that, we have about 53Mt at 0.4% Copper near surface plus 0.1% Nickel, Palladium, Platinum, Gold and Silver by-product potential. And so what we're doing that's playing the summer, is we'll be drilling some follow-up polls for some successful work from 2013 where the previous owner, they drilled 825ft over at 0.4 with continuous mineralization. Those are significant intersections and if we can get more of the same, I think that we can, I would expect that we're going to be able to upgrade that 54Mt either to some M&A from the inferred category. So that again, people saying, well, how big does approach you have to be? Well, I guess it depends on who's looking at it. But I think there's a really good potential with some drilling programmes this year, probably followed by next that we may be able to get that K1-1 deposit of over 100M. Now it starts to become more of a not quite a regional play but that that area, I mean, there's mineralized zones throughout that land package and it's a matter of where do you go? And how do you get to cash flow, because that's what Braveheart is trying to do differently than other companies is, what's the fastest path to cash flow, knowing full well that permit processes are what they are. We're probably still 3 years away at Thierry from having all the permits, we would need to actually start mining. But you know, but you got to start the process and so in the meantime, the key is really, Bull River is the fastest to free cash. Alpine to your point, we might make more money on Alpine running for a couple of months than we will at the Bull River. But guess what, we own the mill. So some of this will be we'll look for our successes, we'll try to make sure that we watch how we spend money but clearly, it's getting to cash flow this year, learning more about Thierry, in the coming year, and then we'll look at the strength of the assets.
Matthew Gordon: What are you going to do with the money you think you're going to be able to produce in the intervening time? Is it just going back in the ground at Thierry and then we're just there's a long story with a big tail to it? Or are there other opportunities that you think, given you got the mill and hopefully the mill’s working that you could focus on?
Ian Berzins: Yeah, it's going to be a trade-off between if we go and try to grab other assets, then on one hand, you get criticised with lack of focus. One of the areas that we were criticised with is that we had $11M less than probably 6 months ago. We successfully in two different undertakings, we've eliminated $6M of convertible debt. So the original note holders, if you will, are now full time shareholders. So that's been eliminated, and we were able also in parallel, we had a rather expensive secure facility with our primary lender, Aaron Matlock, for $5M, we completely were up to date with the accrued interest was completely paid back in shares. We also were able to lower the interest rate from 14.8% to 10%, which is still a high number, but it's less than it was. We've been looking quite clearly at debt and our goal is that through the early proceeds from Bull River is we want to completely eliminate that debt, and then be able to have a picture where we may have a small operation or operations, but they're 100% owned, no Royalties, debt free, and a modest cash flow and see what the world looks like a little bit. We have to look at mean I think at Thierry probably where we would get the better bang for our buck is really trying to spend a little bit more time on the ore body itself, because this is not trying to do grassroots drilling. There's been my estimation, probably better part of $30M of drilling that was largely successful. So, we want to basically own that database on that understanding of the property. And then I think that if there are some larger players that want to work with us on it, we'll have to certainly look at that because as you mentioned a minute ago you don't want to miss the cycle I mean 5 years from now we could go into a Copper cycle that we're going on when we missed it now we got to wait again so but right now Thierry doesn't really cost us anything to hold on to, Alpine doesn't cost us anything to hold on to, the one that costs us frankly is Bull River because we've kept it dewatered for 10 years. Those are you know are real costs so we'll look and I think we'd balance that if there are some other assets in that kind of space of metals that we could add and be accretive maybe we catch part of this electrification wave we think we should be there already with the amount of Copper we've got we believe we should be on a few more radar screens than we are. We understand BHP is coming back to Toronto so I don't know if that means they'll look at us or not but you know but there will be I think a fit at certain point and I looked at some graphs this morning and if you look when we last talked Copper was at US$3.50/lbs, today it's at $4. I looked at 3 intermediate copper producers in western Canada that have all in the last 3 months moved up by 32 to 68% in market cap simply because they’re producers.
Matthew Gordon: There are super cycles, and they commonly get whatever the copper bulls or gold bulls think there are cycles it just happens. Does that not worry you that you're not going to hit it this time around and that you are going to be slightly left behind and have another period or fallow period to work your way through unless you kind of get this momentum going into the project because like even if I look at Bull River the permit required there and you've got the process well started but then it guarantees around how quickly they turn that around for you?
Ian Berzins: Well again the short answer is no and then the other uncertainty is Ktunaxa First Nation but we began dialogue with Ktunaxa back in September 2018 before we actually owned the mine because we realised at the time that was going to be critical to what we're doing. Our footprint is minors postage stamp compared to what Tech is doing in the valley next door but the relationships are important so that to me is key and we'll be we're very close to being able to sign an engagement agreement with Ktunaxa. Originally we planned for the end of March and still March is not over but it'll likely be April but nevertheless that's going to be a key component of the approval process by government because as stewards of the land there's particular concern for water management so those are issues that we know we're going to have to deal with. The permit process we still think that 6 months from the time that all the final application is in front of government is realistic I'd love it to be faster but like I mentioned I think offline before with COVID we lost a lot of time since last March where government and First Nations just didn't have the capacity to really work with us. But it is what it is and we're not through it yet but I think that those relationships are important and Braveheart has advanced the relationship with Ktunaxa further than it's ever been in the history of the mine. Again it's one of those building blocks I'd like to announce that engagement agreement when we get it done here. The market could pick it depending on the sophistication of the investor some people that have been with the project for a while will see that as a huge milestone and just about everybody agrees that the day you get your permit that's when the floodgates open in a small way it just allows you to become a producer not overnight but there's very few operations that would have 8 months of mine feed and I always like to point out that some investors asked me are you guys going to mine some tailings on surface? I said no it's not tailings this is run of mine material that came out of the guts of the ore body.
Matthew Gordon: So hopefully permit is on its way there's a process that you started and I noticed the concentrate offtake agreement that you've signed so that's good, it shows intent. Who's that with and why go earlier?
Ian Berzins: That's with Ocean Partners and I won't get into all the names but we've talked to 3 or 4 I'll call them majors and in each case the stumbling block is that we have a saleable con it's going to good product there aren't a lot of nasties that the smelters are going to be concerned about we have history so to sell the product wasn't going to be a challenge but what I was looking for was to get a pre-payment on that stockpile on the ground. So in the case of Ocean, we agreed to that will sell the first 45,000 wet metric tonnes to Ocean and they have a ROFR after that going forward that would represent probably 3 or 3.5 years out which I liked because it simplifies for a junior the back end of concentrates sales process. They also agreed to loan us $3.5M at terms that are slightly better than our current senior secured creditor. There are conditions precedent on that where we're able to draw initially US$1M and I can then draw later up whenever we get a permit and when we raise some money in parallel from other Canadian sources here. So that 1M is key to me because that allows me to at least complete 1 or 2 of the capital projects that are currently in the pipeline.
Matthew Gordon: So $1M now and then the rest are conditional. Are there any other kind of Securitizations or Leans against any of the infrastructure that you have there?
Ian Berzins: Yeah it's a great I mean currently we have a general security agreement with Matlock Farms against the board of a property. Investors that have come subsequent to that wanted our security guy to stand behind in a supportive position which is always kind of a nice ask and they saying new money trump's old money but we were able to agree to Pari-passu. So that's good for our current lender and now if there comes a point in time where somebody wants to call a loan you actually have to have both parties agree that it's going to happen so we still I mean we would consider the Matlock loan as friendly as it could be and we think we're on the right footing with Ocean as a partnership but at the end of the day Ocean didn't get into this to lend us money. They want to sell our concentrates so they were a bit more nimble and they were I think maybe a bit more forward thinking and less bureaucratic that they looked at this and say you know the prize is quite a bit larger and of course whoever sells concentrates with us at Bull River they're going to be very interested in Thierry should that day come as well.
Matthew Gordon: So that $1M you said it gave me a clue there, you will be able to pay for 1 or 2 or the projects that you want to do. If it can't pay for the 2nd or 3rd one or the 4th one suggests to me that you're going to need to raise some capital and raise some capital scene so are you going to?
Ian Berzins: Yes, in the next I would say 3 to 4 months I want to secure I'll call it to about CAD$2M hard dollars so flow through is relatively easy for us but it doesn't help us with the capital upgrades. We're looking at various ways of how do we bring another two in because frankly what will happen is with conditions that we don't get the second tranche if you will from Ocean until we have the permit I can't wait on the capital, we could wait but then then we're going to add another 3 to 6 months on trying to procure the right equipment or keep the same equipment. The projects I'm really referring to is a large transformer, 10 MVA transformer, we actually own it we bought it a 1.5 years ago, 2 years ago so we need to move that in May from Manitoba to BC and we have a connection date with Hydro in June. So that project will tick the box and that'll be done and my suspicion right now is that we won't have to spend more than about 0.5M to finish that off, it could be less just the way things are lining up. And then of course I always have to convert US$1M million is like CAD$1.3M so you know it's 100,000 here and it's 100,000 there but we have secured rougher and scavenger flotation cells with a party near Kamloops British Columbia. We want them we basically bought 6 tanks and they're refurbish them as we can afford to pay for them so those would be the first 2 projects I'd be trying to advance. The filtration project we've looked at new cells which are about $2M and we have a used option that I don't want to say where it is because someone might scoop us but we have a used option that's quite a bit more frugal but it should meet our needs. And then the final one is a civil works with the tailings so one of the biggest costs, capital costs associated with the tailings project was the engineering and we spent most of the engineering money. When I talk about 5M to complete the upgrades I don't want to sandbag anybody but we've done a lot of work between engineering and actually procurement some of which we've talked about publicly but we do want to basically tick these boxes. And as each of these projects is complete then we again de risk the asset or the risk the project from the point of view of people that are looking you know for call it the final financing. I think today CAD$2M will probably do but you know it might be a bit more than that and we're just investigating what ways and means we can bring those funds in. It sounds like a low number but again you get into things where people may want to lend you to and then they want to sit as senior secured position and that disrupts it all. We're also trying to find some people that recognise that we've acquired some pretty significant assets here at fairly bargain acquisition prices but until we have those people step up the habit.
Matthew Gordon: Stay in touch with us, let us know how you get on, I'm intrigued by how you're piecing this together the chest moves as it were but you're going to need something significant, something meaningful I guess before people recognise it and the share price starts moving in the direction that I guess you want to be moving.
Ian Berzins: I mean again I don't want to spend a lot of time on the Gold aspect but you know we look at some competitors here that have picked up Gold assets and all of a sudden almost overnight they're valued at $35M million and the projects are you know they're a ways away because we understand them. So there's a lot of I think miss valuations out there I think we are grossly undervalued but again I respect the fact that we still have it's a show me story you know so we really have to demonstrate again. I think we've had tremendously good material information, but people are still saying well when are you going to get your permit and it's not a topic that's easy to talk about definitively because you know I can't guarantee that it's 60 days away and that wouldn't be fair to government but we're just going to methodically push forward. A lot of juniors get the sizzle as well from the drill bit and what was lost on the market Q1 of last year we embarked upon a drilling programme underground at Bull River people said the deposits too small so we did 5 drill holes that all intersected the ore body 115m below the 350m level so that on paper arguably actually does increase the size of what's there. We want to drill a couple of deeper holes and if we can get some of the greater potentially better with widths, that starts to say to people well, you know, I'm quite comfortable that Ball River could be a 20-year project, but I can't get too far ahead with the crystal ball until we get pierce points. So we went 5 for 5 on that drilling campaign, which was really good. And then we got hit by COVID, we have to shut the machine down. And again, back in Q1 of 2020 Copper was interesting but wasn't that interesting. It was probably $3 or something like that. I think we were again to drill those holes today and supplement them with some good holes at Thierry, we might get some excitement on the drill bit as well as a production story.
Matthew Gordon: Well, let's see if you do. Thank you very much for today Ian and we'll speak again soon.
Ian Berzins: Thanks, Matthew.
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